Why is “Christian” business so boring?
"Christians often ignore the pressing questions of the day. This could be because they fear that even to understand the issues in depth might weaken their faith. Or it could be because they believe that timeless truths don't need to refer to contemporary anxieties. This is why the most common criticism of Christian art is that it is old-fashioned and irrelevant. In other words, it looks, sounds, or reads like something from another period, and the issues it addresses are not the issues currently bothering people.
"It can be disheartening to put the words 'Christian' and 'art' together in an Internet search engine. Instead of discovering something vital, perceptive, challenging and earth shaking, you are led to sites that display cute greeting cards, comforting verse and bland illustrations.
"When I was researching my radio series 'The History of Religion and Rock' I taped songs by some leading CCM (contemporary Christian music) recording artists and gave them to the editor of a highly influential music paper to see what he would make of them. I then asked him what he thought. 'I felt embarrassed,' he told me. 'The music is paralyzingly dated. There is no fire in it. There is no innovation and no energy. The music is basically a prop for the lyrics which sound like a groovy Californian sermon. The music and the words don't mesh together and the sentiments are pretty wet.'" -- Steve Turner, Imagine, Pg. 101-102
Do you agree with this criticism? Have you ever listened to a Christian radio station and been frustrated at the lack of musical innovation? Why?
For me, it is a frustration at the failure to accurately represent the creativity of God. Instead of creating something "vital, perceptive, challenging and earth shaking" Christians often simply take something that is culturally relevant and put a "Christian" spin on it. Exhibit A: t-shirts that say "A Bread Crumb and Fish" instead of "Abercrombie and Fitch." Why do we do that?
What are some examples of "Christian" businesses? I immediately think of Family Christian Bookstores -- are there other examples? With Christ-following men and women throughout the business world, we have to have created other businesses besides bookstores that sell "A Bread Crumb and Fish" t-shirts.
Why is "Christian" business so boring, so unimaginative?
How can we be U2 instead of Justin Timberlake or Michael W. Smith? How can we use the imaginations God gave to us to be "vital, perceptive, challenging and earth shaking" while being Christ-centered in business?
"It can be disheartening to put the words 'Christian' and 'art' together in an Internet search engine. Instead of discovering something vital, perceptive, challenging and earth shaking, you are led to sites that display cute greeting cards, comforting verse and bland illustrations.
"When I was researching my radio series 'The History of Religion and Rock' I taped songs by some leading CCM (contemporary Christian music) recording artists and gave them to the editor of a highly influential music paper to see what he would make of them. I then asked him what he thought. 'I felt embarrassed,' he told me. 'The music is paralyzingly dated. There is no fire in it. There is no innovation and no energy. The music is basically a prop for the lyrics which sound like a groovy Californian sermon. The music and the words don't mesh together and the sentiments are pretty wet.'" -- Steve Turner, Imagine, Pg. 101-102
Do you agree with this criticism? Have you ever listened to a Christian radio station and been frustrated at the lack of musical innovation? Why?
For me, it is a frustration at the failure to accurately represent the creativity of God. Instead of creating something "vital, perceptive, challenging and earth shaking" Christians often simply take something that is culturally relevant and put a "Christian" spin on it. Exhibit A: t-shirts that say "A Bread Crumb and Fish" instead of "Abercrombie and Fitch." Why do we do that?
What are some examples of "Christian" businesses? I immediately think of Family Christian Bookstores -- are there other examples? With Christ-following men and women throughout the business world, we have to have created other businesses besides bookstores that sell "A Bread Crumb and Fish" t-shirts.
Why is "Christian" business so boring, so unimaginative?
How can we be U2 instead of Justin Timberlake or Michael W. Smith? How can we use the imaginations God gave to us to be "vital, perceptive, challenging and earth shaking" while being Christ-centered in business?
posted by Matthew at 5:18 AM
26 Comments:
I think it's boring because people think that the way the world is is the way the world must be. That is a cheap answer and, frankly, I think it is un-Christian. And we've probably taken the idea of 'being in the world but not of the world' too far in the wrong direction.
The big problem in Christian music and business is isolation. They've isolated theirselves from the rest of the world and therefore limited the amount of influence and growth they each need.
Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you have sudden brilliant talents. Christians need to be working side-by-side with unbelievers in both business and music. Instead of a Christian bookstore, why not rise in the ranks in B&N and have some influence there. (B&N and Borders carry better stock anyway, not all the fluffy stuff).
Instead of a 5-piece band with all Christian members, why not 1 or 2. Christians should not be afraid to join a band with unbelievers. They should be excited about that.
Christian music is terrible because of many reasons. One interesting one (and controversial) is because so many bands right now are defined by worship music. Because worship songs have to be in 4/4 time in order for people to raise hands at the right time, their normal non-worship songs are influence naturally by the playing over and over of the inferior worship music. If you had a band play a bunch of Red Hot Chili Peppers songs for worship, people wouldn't know what to do. They couldn't worship. They'd be so confused.
Another interesting reason C-music is inferior is its history. For the longest time rock 'n roll was considered from the devil. It used to be just So. Gospel and Folk. So C-music got a late start with creative sounds.
C-music also suffers because record companies don't make enough profit (since there's a very small market) to afford decent studio equipment, experienced engineers, etc. So you're pumping out very inexpensive cartoony-type production.
Also, most of the brilliant musicians or studio engineers go into the secular market because it's more creative; they're given more creative freedom. They have access to better equipment, musicians, exposure.
The best thing for Christian music would be to strip itself down into Adult Cont. Pop and So. Gospel. Shut down any christian rock music labels, thereby making bands sign with secular record companies.
I remember a 60 Minutes episode where Third Day was asked "What now? Now that you've conquered the Christian music kingdom?" and Mac Powell responded by saying they were going to make a huge impact in the secular music scene and have success there. Well, they were just ignorant (in the true sense of the word) and inexperienced and failed miserably in the secular world.
It just doesn't work; but we've done it to ourselves.
Is the answer to always go join up with a 'secular' group of people doing the same things? i.e., join Barnes & Noble?
What about an alternative?
See: http://www.heartsandmindsbooks.com/
Byron, the owner, isn't retreating into the world (and I use that language seriously, and in a way different from normal on purpose) and trying to 'be just like' a 'secular' bookstore. His Christian faith transforms and informs the way he understands what it means to run a small bookstore.
(I don't bring up Hearts & Minds in order to dispay a perfect paradigm. He has a niche that he is serving and i recognize that, but within that niche, he is doing things VERY differently than his competition.)
Going to Barnes & Noble doesn't display much imagination, so I want to push you on that point.
http://heartsandmindsbooknotes.blogspot.com/
Thought I'd attach this as well. And yes, I'm promoting this place. :)
in my experience, the reason we are creative is because we are created in the image of the Creator. how can you stand in nature, look at a sunset and not see how beautiful of a painter God is. Or to look at Brad Pitt...I mean uh...Penelope Cruz, and see what a wonderful sculptor He is. my goal and challenge is to make art and music that is respected, that i can appreciate but that glorifies God. If you think about some of the most famous Masters and works of art you soon realize that they were illustrating the Bible, i.e. Michelangelo's "David", and the Sistine Chapel.....i mean come on. I also have noticed that there are some musicians that are infiltrating MTV whom are strong believers and we need to support them as if they were missionaries. My favorites now are Mute Math, Switchfoot, and of course Sufjan Stevens. It is no different than us being missionaries out at our workplace...its just that THEIR workplace happens to be in the music biz. I mean why cant there be Christian jazz or Instramental Music. The Late and great Billy Preston, who wrote the song "That's the way God Planned it", got to glorify God with his music and if God was acting as his agent, invited him to play with the likes of The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, and Eric Clapton. When God is glorified through our creations it is amaizing what he will use them for. They themselves could be witnesses too. God bless and talk to yall soon.
the dude:
no, it's not ALWAYS what should be done. but the issue is that christian business/music are about 1% of business/music, so you are really limiting the things that influence you and the option to experience different ways of doing things. If a group of people is infinitely better at something than your own group of people, then I'd want to hookup with them and learn and grow. Maybe after a few generations of such hooking-up christian business/music would be improving.
As far as B&N, they do an amazing amount of community service, whereas I never hear of Lifeway or Fam. Bkstores doing anything. I'd rather support B&N.
I have noticed at my current client that the corporate world has a tendency to systematically remove creativity from business. Corporations make their money on standardization -- standardization of products, processes, and employees (I could've gone with "people" but I didn't want 3 p's). If they can make their employees into personable robots, the customer experience will be identical in every store.
I think corporatization is a huge drain on creativity. Back in the day, scientists like astronomer Johannes Kepler said the purpose of their work was to "think God's thoughts after Him." Composers like Haydn wrote music to inspire awe in God's Creation. Contrast that to today: scientists work on projects based on their market value (e.g., seedless watermelons) and record labels sell pretty faces even if they are, in the words of our friend Michael Bolton from Office Space, "no-talent ass clowns."
My problem with trying to be in positions of influence is that we (usually) compromise everything that is central to what we believe. I'm not against growth, I'm against the way we try to achieve it. What is wrong with being a small, different, unique, yet wholly true to our identity as the people of God?
I disagree with you on one point, however. You said:
"If a group of people is infinitely better at something than your own group of people, then I'd want to hookup with them and learn and grow. Maybe after a few generations of such hooking-up christian business/music would be improving."
What if the problem isn't that they are 'infintely better' than us (and I hesitate to make this an us/them distinction, but for arguments sake..) but rather, by trying to be like them we fail because we are not being who we are? Steve Turner's point in that book, which I highly suggest reading, is that we've turned our back on thousands of years of tradition in order to follow the latest trend. Why do we have this sudden urge to be just like everyone else when for thousands of years we have had a beautiful tradition to build on?
And, on another point, I have issues with B&N doing to the local bookstore what Wal-Mart has done to local grocers, general stores and hardware stores, namely, put them out of business. So why support the destruction of local community for the sake of homogenization?
Finally, why do you have to choose between B&N and LifeWay/Family? Have we become so unimaginative? What about a 'third way'? Can't we think of SOMETHING else? For example, I support my school's bookstore ( www.regentbookstore.com ) which, although more expensive at times, is run by people who care passionately about what they are doing, know what they are selling, wouldn't sell me anything without making sure I know what I'm getting, and need my support in order to stay in business.
Quick thought on the discussion between Christian and The Dude: In 2 Corinthians 6:14, Paul says "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" Clearly we could distort this to justify isolation but that would be foolish. However, considering Jesus' warning in Matthew 6:24 that we can worship either God or money, I would qualify running a business with unbelievers as a yoke. If you are professionally committed to working with someone whose goal is money, the yoke is going to pull you in a direction you don't want to go. That's where I find myself now...
Okay, let me state something. I have zero knowledge of business. I've never been in an office before. So as far as business, I'm just coming from a outside perspective. And I have a lot of problems with Christian Bookstores. They're evil. So I'm probably wrong about my business things. HA!
Matt: In 2 Cor 6:14, the word "fellowship" in the Greek has the idea of intense fellowship or even intercourse. I'm curious if you can link that to a business partnership. Of course, it's a common verse regarding marriage, but I wonder to if it was a specific command to the Corinthians. I'd have to do more background and culture study.
But I've been involved heavily in music and been a musician since I was 4. I can talk endlessly about the problems of Christian music. In general, Christian musicians are highly inferior to those in the secular world. They just are right now. That may be changing since its starting to be more okay for Christian kids to be artsy. Whereas, even growing up in the 80s a lot of Christian parents almost frowned on the arts...probably because most churches did.
I mean, who's music is going to be more creative: A boy who grows up listening to Tom Waits, B.B. King and Jimi Hendrix? Or a boy who grows up listening to Point of Grace, Steven C. Chapman and worship music? For the majority of C-parents, they won't buy their kids Tom Waits and the rest. Instead, when their kids are young, they think it's better to play "uplifting" music. Hopefully, this trend is changing now that the more artsy Christians are beginning to have kids. You should hear what my 11 week-old listens to.
It's just a fact right now that Christian music is suffering. Kind of similar to what Matt said, take a band like Casting Crowns and give their stuff to Columbia Records and they'll laugh (by the way, i'm not saying don't listen to them, or that they suck, if you like 'em, then listen to them). And it has nothing, nothing to do with the lyrics.
I could spend hours laying out the problems of C-music. I've spent hours trying to figure out how to improve it, and there's just not an answer other than just hoping it changes one day.
Matt, just to make sure, I'm not attacking your 2 Cor verse reference, it may very well be applicable. I just wanted to make aware what kind of fellowship it's referring to. Maybe a business partnership would be considered intimate. I don't know. Just didn't want to to think what I said was offensive. I always get worried since comments can get read many different ways on the internet.h
This is Robby Grabow ...
One area to add to the discussion is to reflect on the last 20 years in cinema and see how rare it is to have a Christian themed film succeed and most attempts by Christian groups to promulgate a Christian theme turns out to be terrible in many respects (i.e. poor dialogue, plot, cinematography).
But I think we can take heart in the thought of how Christians can produce cogent art in both cinema and song. Look at films such as On the Waterfront, Chariots of Fire, Tender Mercies, and the Passion, just to name a few. 3 of those were Oscar winners and the Passion grossed about a billion dollars (world wide) and each movie profoundly challenges the viewer to grabble with spiritual discipline and truth (i.e. keeping the Sabbath, treating your workforce with dignity, the power of marriage as a depiction of Christ and his church, and of course, Christ's sacrifice on the cross). I guess I just wanted to bring up that while I agree that the Christian music industry is lacking in many respects (and Christian cinema), we can be encouraged to innovate as there are witnesses and examples of the past that have had a significant impact (i.e. Hebrews 11 [therefore, since we are sourrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses ...]
I hope this doesn't derail the conversation about creativity that reflects God in art, music, business...that was the intended discussion this week and I have loved reading your thoughts...
Christian -- personally, I wish we would all err on the side of being offensive on this blog. Being men, I think we can handle it. I appreciate your comments about the 2 Cor 6:14 verse. The more I think about it, I think you're right -- it may be too liberal to apply 2 Cor 6:14 to business relationships -- but I had two reasons for doing so that I think still apply:
1) Authority. When you submit to anyone else's authority, you are necessarily subject to following the direction they set...or you can refuse to acknowledge their authority. My point is that if as an employee or a business partner, someone with authority over you places money ahead of God, you will be forced down that path. Or you can reject that authority. There is a sort of yoke that exists in that business relationship that bears resemblance to marriage. It is probably going too far, however, to say Paul is admonishing us to never submit to a business relationship with an unbeliever. I don't know.
2) In an ideal world, I certainly see our relationships in business being more intimate than they are today. When we bring Christ into every aspect of our lives, how could that not be true? It's like Ted said a couple of weeks ago: "The word we most frequently translate Fellowship in the New Testament is koinonia, which means to participate with others in something...those who co-labor for the Kingdom sweating and bleeding, laughing and crying shoulder to shoulder experience true community...identify those who are true yokefellows and WORK together for the glory of God in all things so that you would be salt and light."
This is a very difficult issue. As a Christian and an entrepreneur, my goal is to start a company that happens to be run by Christian morals and ethics, however to be labled "Christian," would definately turn off many people...and the last thing you want to do as a business owner is turn potential customers away before they even have the opportunity to try your product. So the key is to be different, to be creative,to get the "people of the world" hooked and let their thinking be transformed about pre-conceived notions of "boring" Christians.
Well stated Matt. I agree.
I just had some further thoughts on Christian music.
The fact is that there actually is a lot of very creative Christian music and musicians out there. But the other fact is that they can't survive in the Christian music market. For some reason the market demands uncreative music. Let me give you some examples.
Matt Slocum - you might know him as the brain behind Sixpence None the Richer, who never sold well in the Christian market, but was a success in the secular world. Now, as he is considered one of the best cellists in the world, he spends so much time recording for rock bands and pop music.
Trip Wamsley - widely considered the best bassist in the U.S. Ask any record producer about him and you'll hear that. He actually started out as Caedmon's Call's original bassist. Then, he dropped out to do solo stuff, which never sold despite its brilliance. Now, like Slocum, he's a studio musician who records with huge secular bands.
There are several more examples, but it's weird, it appears that you can't be creative AND successful in Christian music. Even producers like Gordon Kennedy have left the Christian music scene. Why is this?
I think an interesting experiment is to go out and listen to Bebo Norman's discography - all the way from his first EP recorded cheaply in his early 20s to the latest release on a major christian label. You'll no doubt see that his creativeness has been stripped greatly. Why is this?
I don't know these answers, other than to say the trends show that Christian music just can't support creativeness. But why?
Green Cup, thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you, and I see how hard it can be. May I ask what your 'product' is?
Christian and all...
I totally hear what you're saying. And I hope you don't hear me saying that I'm all for the Christian music industry. I think its problems are a sign of something deeply wrong with the state of American Christianity.
To me this is also a question of community, success, and mission.
1) As Christian consumers, we have also screwed over our musically talented brothers and sisters by demanding something very specific from them. The Christian artist is usually pushed to the edge of the community and therefore can't dialogue anymore. I know plenty of Christian artists (all forms) who have been ostracized by their communities for thinking differently and being seen as a threat to the status quo. The church-at-large is too American to be its true self, so the answer for many of these artists is to sell out.
2) Why are we defining success as being popular on a large scale? That should be a work of God, if it in fact happens. But when we start to pursue it or make it our goal, we are limiting God's potential use of art or the artist for his community, or even for just his/her church. A theology of the Cross is extremely important here. And a simple (yet informed) reading of the New Testament.
3) Finally, what is our mission as a Christian community, and even more specifically the Christian artist or businessperson? Is it to put people in power so everyone will be converted? Or is it to be the people of God (along with all that implies)? Again, a simple, informed reading of Scripture should challenge all of our ideas of what it means to be the people of God who follow a crucified and resurrected messiah. Is bigger always better? Why is it that deep down inside we all love the fact that Bono is a Christian (which I do) and we almost use that as our main apologetic. (Well BONO is a Christian! so HA! Oh, you like him? See, we're not that bad!) Perhaps we feel like this because we have rejected Jesus. We all hope--as many of the Jews hoped--that the messiah would be a superstar, or the President, or a military leader, or someone who will have incredible influence in the world and finally change things. But what we got was Jesus, and consequently, 'a new way to be human.'
What do all of these things mean for us as we try to sort out what it means to be Christians in the world, specifically when it has to do with music or business?
In response to #1: I totally agree. I remember when Andrew Peterson's cd was stripped from the shelves of all the christian bookstores because he sang the word 'fags'. They didn't even take into account the context.
#2: I didn't mean to imply grading success on being popular. I guess what I was trying to get across is that you're not allowed to be creative in the c-music industry. And if you are, you don't sell...and can't support your family. I find it sad that all of the brilliant musicians that are believers aren't in c-music because they can't support (a) their creativity and (b) their families.
#3: Since I'm a musician and not a businessman, I'll answer the music portion. Our mission as a musician is to produce the best music we can. That's our job. If we do that, then other things will follow. You build relationships so easily in the music world when you're producing good music and you're respected as a musician. Then, let God take control of those relationships. And if your music grows hugely popular, then great. But if not, then continue putting out the best music you can. Like I said, if you're doing that, people will hear it. And you'll build relationships.
In summary, I think our mission for whatever job we have is to do that job to the best of our ability. That's it. Everything else will follow.
My product is sustainable coffee...starting a direct sales coffee company to bring about awareness of the injustices brought upon coffee farmers and what we can do about it.
I'm returning to a thread last discussed by Matthew. I find the concept of intimacy in the workplace so intriguing. Perhaps that is because it is so evidently missing. And I'm not talking about bedroom kind of intimacy, but truely knowing the people you work with; allowing for things to get messy and work through it. I want to believe that work can be a place where your business partner, your employees, your bosses, etc know you well and know your crap.
Perhaps that is unrealistic. In our society today, it seems that when things get messy, we can always quit. Or, if things begin to look messy, the best thing to do is to cover it up. I hate this attitude. Why can't we get comfortable with the fact that we're all a bunch of screw ups?
Someday I want to work with people who I've worked through hard stuff with and we (as a company, a group, whatever) are stronger for it.
Just some musings...
Green Cup...
I love it! A few of us on here have dreams of opening a coffee shop someday so let's keep in touch :)
On a similar note, I was watching CBC (Canadian news) this morning and there was a story about similar injustices in the chocolate/cocoa industry. Apparently it even involves human trafficking.
You know, I don't think it is said enough on this blog, but I hope that we are all praying for these things going on around the world and asking God to guide us towards a proper response.
Every one of us has been called to help our suffering brothers and sisters around the world--and around the corner. I often forget that.
First of all, I think it is a HUGE mistake for us to filter our creativity by what the market will bear, compromising for fear that we will turn customers away. This notion that we can't provide for our families if we don't sell out is ridiculous...we are limiting our imaginations. If you're an amazing musician, why not start a coffee shop or an art gallery with a friend and play in the shop/gallery, teach music to local kids, record albums and sell them locally. That would feed a family.
Piggybacking on Robby's comments, I can think of two other recent "Christian" movies that have acheived staggering success (by worldly measures): The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe and The Lord of the Rings. I think CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien provide a great model for Godly creativity that can also have success in the market. They set out to write Gospel-based books...flipping a coin to see who got the children's book and who got science fiction. They picked the genre and infiltrated it with serious creativity. That was their goal. And guess what? They have also had crazy success in the market.
What's the goal? Marketability or Godliness in all things? Matthew 6:33.
Christian -- I agree with your statement that we should focus on doing our jobs to the best of our ability and trust God to provide, but we have to examine whether our work is Godly. Should I be a porn star to the best of my ability? If not, where do you draw the line of Godly business?
Back to creativity -- why does creativity have to be limited to art/movies/music? Why not a new way to do business?
PS -- here is a CNN article talking about the chocolate/cocoa industry issue The Dude mentioned.
Matt, about whether or not the work is Godly, I just was assuming we made that decision already in our minds. I forget that in business that needs to be a common question. I recall all our great home group discussions about that.
And about a musician opening a coffee shop or whatever, I was just assuming the position that a musician was trying to be a success producing albums and touring since that's what i know. Obviously, if God has a different plan, then that should be followed.
Coming from a non-artistic background, I'm curious what your definition of a "successful" christian artist is. I'm a huge fan of Bebo Norman and love all of his latest music...what is deemed "creative" is a personal interpretation right? Just as one might view a painting as brilliant, another might see it as boring. If God has blessed you with the talents to sing and perform, does the size of the audience determine how creative and successful you are?
On another note, just because the Lord gifted you with musical talents does not necessarily mean that that is your calling...perhaps God want's you to be wildy creative performing at small coffee shops once a week and paying the bills doing something else non-related. I think we have a tendency to put ourselves in a box saying, "I'm a musician, I'm a salesperson, I'm a mom, I'm a stockbroker," and define ourselves by these things. How about, "I'm a child of God and incredibly creative and successful in all I do?" Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for that article on chocolate/cocoa industry. As Christians I think it is important to constantly learn more about where the things we buy and consume are coming from--because some of the research is horrifying--and if more people were aware of the incrdible injustices I believe more action would be taken. I think more and more business owners and artists both Christian and non-Christian are taking note...companies like American Apparel have influenced the fashion industry by not outsourcing to sweatshops in poor countries, or Film makers who produce movies like An Inconvenient Truth or Black Gold, or Artists like U2 who bring about awareness of the atrocities in Africa. Its about education and awareness...and about using the abilities the Lord has blessed us with to creatively think of solutions that plague this world.
This is Grabow ...
One more thought ... this line of discussion has centered on the fact that Christians must innovate and be creative and while I think that is an extremely noble and necessary utiliztion of God's gifts, I do feel compelled to bring up the importance of accountibility within creativity (or any endeavor for that matter). I think the reason Christian arts is in the mundane setting it is currently in is because of the excess ludness that prevailed in previous time periods, mainly the sixties. Because some baby boomers grew up in the 60's and saw the ability the arts can have as a method of perversion (all be it, even within the confines of amazing creativity), they witnessed how the vehicle can be used to manipulate and counteract the actual goal of glorifying God and making Christ known to the nations.
For example, we can use one of the most beloved directors of our time directing The Last Temptation of Christ and one could argue that it is creative and pushes its audience to reconsider Christ in new ways and therefore is productive for the kingdom. I would argue vehemently in the other direction that there is little if no redeaming value in the film as it depicts Christ as tormented, confused and above all He is flawed.
I bring up the previous example to challenge the group to think of what that line is (or if you believe the line exists) where we do more harm in our creativity and we tread close to the path of leading the flock astray. I'm not advocating the status quo, I am just attempting to sollicit opinion.
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